Ukrainian women: a person or a thing?

Sometimes it's interesting to look at yourself from the outside. Through the eyes of a person from another world with different norms of life. We are talking about the position of a woman in Ukraine. And this interview will surely make someone sad and even irritate. Although there will be those who agree with the interviewee at least in the main thing. I would like to have as many of them as possible.

Jean-Francois Bouzhan is the director of the French Methodological Information Center in Kyiv, the activity of which covers Chernihiv, Vinnytsia, Zhytomyr and Cherkasy regions besides Kyiv. According to him, he came to Ukraine "to see the other world, to find out for himself where the borders of Europe end". He was shocked by some things in our world, just as our readers might be shocked by some of Mr Buzhan's remarks. He worked first in Lviv, where he taught French to university students and learned Ukrainian himself. He graduated from agrarian university and business university. In Kyiv, he also organizes public discussions on various topics under the auspices of the French Cultural Center. One of the latter discussed the position of women in Ukrainian society.

- Why did you address the topic "Woman: personality or object?

- We prepared this discussion together with my compatriot Joanna Shikrun, who lived here for several years and wrote an interesting work about the feminist movement in Ukraine and its peculiarities. I think the topic of our discussion is very topical today, because women have many problems here. Abroad, learning that a girl from Ukraine, she is often perceived as either a top model or a prostitute.

- It's strange, I don't remember anyone abroad perceiving me in one of these hypostasis...

- I know it sounds naive. But it's the image of a Ukrainian woman abroad. Even rich new Ukrainian women are perceived that way.

Many foreigners believe that in Ukraine it will be easier for them to find a girlfriend or wife: Ukrainians are more agreeable and want to marry foreigners, because they are better off financially. In the end, everything rests on the economic situation. But not only that. During the discussion Ukrainian women said that they prefer foreigners because they are more attentive, responsible, more interested in their opinion, do not drink as much as Ukrainian men. They treat women as partners, help raise children. Many Ukrainians do not believe that a Ukrainian husband can understand their problems or remain loyal to them.

- It seems to me that a Ukrainian man needs a mistress to improve his self-esteem, it's like an attribute of a "real man". Otherwise, what will your friends, colleagues say?

- It was like this in France about 40 years ago. But now it's a rare phenomenon. If it's okay, why change it? In Ukraine, I know many men who say that they are happy in marriage, love their wife and children and have a mistress, often more than one. I think it comes from insecurity not only in sexual terms, but also in career, and also depends on education. A Ukrainian man will never talk about his defeat. A man who is confident in himself is not afraid to admit that everything happens in life.

- Did you tell your mother about this discussion?

- Yes. Her first question was about abortion. She was just shocked that by the age of 50, a woman in Ukraine has an average of eight abortions. For most feminists, the freedom to dispose of her body starts with safe sex: her body is her property. If a couple does not want children, a man should share responsibility with a woman. And Ukrainians believe that getting rid of an unwanted child is their concern.

Until recently, there were no contraceptives in Ukraine. There were bad hormonal remedies that could not be taken all the time. When we asked those present who were taking birth control pills or using contraception, no one wanted to answer. People are still uncomfortable talking about such topics.

Another problem: you have many people who think that a woman's purpose is to get married and have children. During the discussion, one married man said..: "The function of a woman is to give birth. And that's it." In the entire civilized world, women are engaged in various spheres of activity on an equal footing with men, and according to the Ukrainian mentality, a woman should be behind her husband, give birth to his children, take care of him.

If I met women in Ukraine, with whom it was interesting to communicate, as a rule, they were over 30. If a girl is taught to be only a wife and mother, her main concern is to lean on someone, to marry. In fact, she is looking for a new dad and does not believe that she can cope with life's problems. Although she is the one who can solve them.

- But that means becoming a person. It's different: being a woman and being a person.

- Simone de Beauvoir said..: "We are not born women, we become them." You can become a woman in many different ways. The most characteristic way in Ukraine is through marriage, when a woman suddenly finds out that she is not on her husband, but the family keeps on her: she works along with a man, raising children, cooking, cleaning, washing, leading the house. And in the end she realizes her self-sufficiency, her strength. Then it can lead to divorce, because the woman begins to defend her rights and autonomy.

- Many women know that even before marriage...

- In Ukraine, girls often marry very young, right after school. It is easy for a husband to subjugate such a wife, especially if he is older. And then, having given birth, a woman often settles at home for a long time. Another thing, if she is a specialist, her career took place before the birth of the child, then after maternity leave it is easier for her to return.

One panelist said that many Ukrainian women are traumatized by the situation in society (and economic in the first place) and do not see an opportunity to build their own life here, to have a normal family, so they are looking for men with money abroad. That is, they are looking for a solution to their problems in something, in someone, but not in themselves.

Of course, the economic situation always affects the position of women in society. But I have always wondered why Ukrainian girls at the age of 20 are so infantile. In France, they grow up much earlier. It is true that France has much older traditions of feminist consciousness as a person - they go back to 1789, to the French bourgeois revolution, when the French began to defend their interests, arguing that if they bring up new citizens, they should have a status in society. It was a long history of French women fighting for their rights.

- Women's independence is good, but in an interview, French psychologist Jacques Poujol told me that in France today there is a huge problem - divorce: more and more independent women do not want to live with their husbands.

- Yes, this applies to women who participated in feminist movements in the 60s and 70s. The young generation looks at life in a different way: we want to have families, because two people should raise a child - both father and mother are equally necessary in his mental and physical maturity. But we want equality in relationships.

- Are you saying that French men dream of running to the store, washing the floors, cooking food?

- I don't want to live with someone who is my thing, who I give money to and demand complete submission for it. I prefer independent women. I like it when a woman can stand up to a man and say, "I can survive without you in this life, I have enough of myself. But if you want, we can try it together."

- But the truth is, any woman will survive alone, even if she thinks she can't. A Ukrainian woman who is afraid to leave her husband who hurts her will survive as well. So what's the difference?

- It's that one woman is not aware of it and is afraid, and another is not afraid to be independent. This is the main difference between a typical Ukrainian and a typical French woman.

- Are you talking about material or psychological independence?

- I mean both. When you provide yourself, you feel your independence and self-sufficiency.

- But in Ukraine, it is very difficult for an average woman to be materially independent.

- That is why I say that the dependent position of women in Ukraine is largely determined by the economic situation in the country. Upbringing in the family and the level of her income have a determining influence on her self-consciousness. Although in your society something is also changing, at least in big cities. There are women who have understood: career is important, it is important to have your own world, not only to be a male appendage. But it's either women in their 30s, mostly divorced, - they have their own business or a good job, competent, literate. Or young girls from educated families where they have been taught to respect themselves, make a career and find their place in society. It is not only women who need to be taught to be independent of men, but men also need to learn not to depend on women, primarily in their daily lives.

Unfortunately, your feminist organizations are not very successful. When we asked the participants about them, no one could name a single one, and we had a list of 200 different women's organizations in Ukraine. The problem is the Ukrainian mentality: people only care about themselves, they do not care what happens to others. It's very hard for Ukrainians to work on something in the group independently - they used to have a boss who always tells them what to do. You're not used to unite on interests to defend them, to discuss important issues.

- Unfortunately, the problem often lies with women themselves. Let her husband beat her, cheat her - she will tolerate, because as if proud of her status as a married woman. Without her husband, she is inferior in the eyes of our society. Even in the shop, if a woman resents something, she may be told: "You probably have no husband. So you're not happy."

Second point: a man who has a mistress is hardly judged. But if a married woman has a lover, everyone will be against her.

- That's what speaks about the attitude towards women as things, objects - she has no right to anything. It even manifests itself in the address: "Woman, girl". That's very rude. After all, the treatment of "woman" even more emphasizes the attitude to her as a sexual object.

- We also say "man", by the way...

- That's what I mean, the difference between the sexes is accentuated even in addressing a person. And in marriage agencies, which bring together Ukrainian women with foreigners, emphasizes especially: "unemancipated woman".

- What do you mean?

- That a woman is presented as a thing, as an object. Ukrainians are good, kind, caring, do not want a professional career and require little. The whole West knows: if you want to get married as 50 years ago, if you are looking for a slave - go to Ukraine. Agencies are selling your women into slavery.

- I think it's fair. If she's looking for a master and he's looking for a slave, then they're a couple.

- If you really think so, it's very bad.

- I, of course, am exaggerating. But among these women, there are those who have gone through so much that they're willing to do anything for a guaranteed meal, an arranged life for the children, finally a shelter over their heads. And to think of "high matter", you have to be a complicated person. Not everyone is.

- Is it normal for a mother to bring her daughter to an agency like this?

- She wants her to be happy. And I guess deep down, she hopes her daughter can help her. Her daughter is her capital. Sometimes the only one... Haven't you met women in Ukraine who don't want to marry abroad?

- Yes, I have. These women said that their future is in Ukraine and they want to work here and make their country better. But such women are few. They are mainly those who have been abroad a lot and can objectively assess their country. I often say: "Ukraine is a room with one, badly washed window. And everyone looks into it, but they don't see the right picture of the world. Everyone sees only America. But there is also Africa, Cuba. And life there is much harder".

There's nothing perfect. For example, when abortion was allowed in the Soviet Union, French women until the 70s did it secretly. Until the 50s, they had no right to open a bank account in their name. Today, too, there are problems for those who want to engage in political or business activities. Only 13% of our deputies at the state level are women. Although three years ago a law was issued that every political party should have 40% women in its ranks and in its representative offices at the state level. We are waiting for the results of this law to come out by the next election, but it was issued because French women are defending their rights.

- A very patriarchal vision of women's place in villages and small towns has been preserved in Ukraine. There, we are simply not talking about any emancipation. And how in France?

- We have no difference in views on women's issues between villages and cities. There's a difference of opinion between generations. And in a village in young families, all homework is divided equally. You really have a big problem, because there's not enough communication between town and village. In France, these connections are much stronger. People are educated in the city, and then they return to the village. Here in Ukraine, they do everything not to return. Villages are empty and wild. You also have a huge difference in clothes of villagers and townspeople, we have it almost imperceptible.

I have been to your villages and I know: women work very hard, they are really slaves in the house. And they do not know anything about what is happening in big cities: you do not even have a national press. There can be one or two TV channels in the village. I am afraid that at least 50 more years will pass until the emancipation touches the Ukrainian village.

And the French society is becoming more and more androgynous. Women and men even dress alike. In Ukraine, this phenomenon is rare even among students.

- But this is a French proverb: "A beautiful woman is a confident woman, and a confident woman is a well-dressed woman".

- It seems to me that Ukrainians are hiding behind their clothes. They are looking for confidence in her, which they do not really have. Maybe that's why your MPs ride Mercedes. Ukrainians actually think a lot about clothes and dress more elegantly than, say, the French.

- One Swedish diplomat once told me that our women dress like in "Parisian chic", walk in high heels during the day. She didn't think it was wise.

- It's true. And for us, this way of dressing is the past. Although maybe your manner is more correct in terms of normality. You look for confidence in your clothes, we look for comfort. On the other hand, the clothes of the French are more in tune with their inner world. In France, there is more diversity and it's easier to maintain individuality. In Ukraine, women wear skirts much more often than in France. Ukrainian men prefer women wearing skirts.

- We believe that women should still be different from men. Wouldn't you prefer a woman who looks like a woman?

- Who doesn't look like a woman, but is a woman. Appearances aren't everything, in most cases she's deceiving. I won't marry a woman just because she looks good.

- But a man does notice in the crowd a woman who is skillfully painted, well-dressed, isn't she?

- Yes, that's okay. But when she looks like that, she becomes an object of seduction to a man. Although that doesn't mean she sees herself that way. During the discussion, Ukrainians explained that they make up and dress first for themselves, then - for others. To feel confident. The Frenchwoman does not need cosmetics and clothes to be confident.

Coming to Ukraine, foreigners sometimes take for prostitutes young Ukrainian girls: a lot of cosmetics, short skirts, black stockings, as in cheap American films. Another model of these films that they adopt and which will then have a devastating effect on their lives is the "bimbo": the girl is cute in every way and very aggressive, who uses her youth and beauty to ensure her life. And when there is no youth and beauty left, then what? Shouldn't you develop your intellect and abilities? In my opinion, traditional Ukrainian cinema model is not better either: all women virgins in white dresses, with wreaths on their heads, wandering in the fields and forests. Or "plowing" in the house, nursing children, grooming their husbands. In my opinion, the first feminist in Ukraine was Mavka from the poem of Lesya Ukrainka.

Yes, Ukrainian women are very beautiful. But we had an American woman at the discussion, who said: "Beauty is not the main thing in a woman, it's charm." And I agree with her. It is easier to have beauty than charm - you can draw it, but the charm comes from inside.

- Cultivated by decades of Soviet power, the image of a woman who "horse on a racetrack will stop and enter the burning hut", could hardly claim femininity and charm. Few people thought about this concept in Ukraine in previous times. Although I could name women, in my opinion, possessing charm.

- I have met some elderly women with charm here, but not many. And in young or middle age - I did not find charm.

- I think you're just out of luck. Do you think a man should have charm too or not?

- You will be surprised, but I have met many men with charm in Ukraine (please do not think that I have an unconventional sexual orientation). I feel more independent in Ukrainian men, and this gives them charm in my eyes. But do not confuse with charisma, because not all men who have charisma have charm. Maybe I am not sensitive to the charm of Ukrainian women, because for me personal independence is a necessary component to be fascinated. But of course, I do not have any attractiveness in my eyes and the man who said the following during the discussion: "You want to make France from our country (I don't want that, by the way). In France, all women are very independent and independent - and this is a big problem". He came with this opinion and left with it. And, unfortunately, this mentality is typical for Ukrainian men.